{"id":16565,"title":"Raoul De Keyser - 2009 - Ik ben een maker, ik wil het zien en afsluiten [NL, interview]","dimensions":"6 p.","date_begin":null,"material":"","art_status_id":13,"legal_status_id":47,"category_id":168,"platform_id":1,"deleted":false,"asset_count":2,"stream_count":0,"collection":"Hans Theys Archive / Archief Hans Theys","cached_tag_list":"","publishing_process_id":1,"annotation":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eINTRODUCTION TO\u0026nbsp;THIS TEXT\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe current interviews with Raoul De Keyser, done four and three years before his death, were not meant to be. The painter didn\u0026rsquo;t want to receive journalists anymore. Having written art reviews himself, he didn\u0026rsquo;t believe in them. Furthermore, it annoyed him that they always started talking about other painters, as if his work wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be sufficient. \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t they understand I am narcissistic?\u0026rdquo; he asked me rhetorically.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eOn the other hand, he was longing to talk about his work with somebody who wasn\u0026rsquo;t blind. The second time I met him, he had created a small solo show in his living room with paintings that were dear to him. He even had made a small catalogue.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eHowever, whenever I tried to talk about the material conditions of his work, he became reluctant to speak. The first reason might have been the fact that painters sometimes really don\u0026rsquo;t know what they have \u0026lsquo;done\u0026rsquo;. The painter Walter Swennen summarized this feeling by telling me that \u0026ldquo;Whenever I tell somebody how I have made something, I have the impression to be lying\u0026rdquo;. Filming this painter while he was at work, I noticed that some things happen so quickly, that it actually must be impossible sometimes to recount what happened. (Also, a lot of things that happen are not the result of decisions, but of reactions to things that occur, or of attempts to avoid something from occurring.) The second reason for De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s reluctance, might have been that he was losing his memory, and that he was afraid to be inaccurate himself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaking with De Keyser at that time was also difficult, because his hearing was impaired. Sometimes this prevents the collocutor from being subtle, making a joke, being himself or herself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe first text is mainly about my first impression that parts of De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s paintings seemed to be floating apart. And I wondered whether this resulted from an original way of seeing things, or whether it grew out of the work itself. (De Keyser believed the latter.) However, this conversation led him to show me a picture of a sculpture by Giacometti, which moved him a lot, he said. At the time, I could only notice that this sculpture also seemed to be constituted of separate parts. But later I realized that it must have reminded him of his father, who was a carpenter, and that the depicted woman really was a \u0026lsquo;western\u0026rsquo; woman, with a handbag resting on her feet, which probably reminded him of his mom.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe second text tries to focus on the painting itself. Here the most important thing he seems to say is that to him painting boils down to \u0026lsquo;putting a line\u0026rsquo; on a canvas and finding new ways to \u0026lsquo;cross\u0026rsquo; the painting from one side to the other. This remark enabled me to see the evolution in his work (focusing on the different ways of creating \u0026lsquo;lines\u0026rsquo;) and to make a presentation of his work for the show \u0026lsquo;XANADU\u0026rsquo; at S.M.A.K. (Ghent) in 2010, whereby I combined older and new paintings for the first time in De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s life. He was so impressed by this presentation, that he thanked me by offering me a water colour showing me as an acrobat building the show.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eIn the years preceding his death I visited him regularly. One day, he showed me his last painting on canvas. On the back of it he had written: \u0026ldquo;De voltooide onvoltooide\u0026rdquo; (The finished unfinished one). We were moved.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eMontagne de Miel, June 26\u003csup\u003eth\u003c/sup\u003e 2018\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n","date_end":null,"reference":"","stream_count_app":22,"permalink":"raoul-de-keyser-ik-ben-een-maker-ik-wil-het-zien-en-afsluiten","description_ca":"","short_description_ca":"","description_it":"","short_description_it":"","cached_primary_asset_url":null,"cached_actor_names":"Hans Theys","hide_from_json":true,"prev_platform_id":null,"description_uk":null,"short_description_uk":null,"description_tr":null,"short_description_tr":null,"mhka_works":false,"category":{"en":"Interview","nl":"","fr":""},"poster_image":null,"poster_credits":null,"translations":[{"locale":"en","short_description":"","description":"\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eAbstract\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe current interviews with Raoul De Keyser, done four and three years before his death, were not meant to be. The painter didn\u0026rsquo;t want to receive journalists anymore. Having written art reviews himself, he didn\u0026rsquo;t believe in them. Furthermore, it annoyed him that they always started talking about other painters, as if his work wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be sufficient. \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t they understand I am narcissistic?\u0026rdquo; he asked me rhetorically.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eOn the other hand, he was longing to talk about his work with somebody who wasn\u0026rsquo;t blind. The second time I met him, he had created a small solo show in his living room with paintings that were dear to him. He even had made a small catalogue.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eHowever, whenever I tried to talk about the material conditions of his work, he became reluctant to speak. The first reason might have been the fact that painters sometimes really don\u0026rsquo;t know what they have \u0026lsquo;done\u0026rsquo;. The painter Walter Swennen summarized this feeling by telling me that \u0026ldquo;Whenever I tell somebody how I have made something, I have the impression to be lying\u0026rdquo;. Filming this painter while he was at work, I noticed that some things happen so quickly, that it actually must be impossible sometimes to recount what happened. (Also, a lot of things that happen are not the result of decisions, but of reactions to things that occur, or of attempts to avoid something from occurring.) The second reason for De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s reluctance, might have been that he was losing his memory, and that he was afraid to be inaccurate himself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaking with De Keyser at that time was also difficult, because his hearing was impaired. Sometimes this prevents the collocutor from being subtle, making a joke, being himself or herself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe first text is mainly about my first impression that parts of De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s paintings seemed to be floating apart. And I wondered whether this resulted from an original way of seeing things, or whether it grew out of the work itself. (De Keyser believed the latter.) However, this conversation led him to show me a picture of a sculpture by Giacometti, which moved him a lot, he said. At the time, I could only notice that this sculpture also seemed to be constituted of separate parts. But later I realized that it must have reminded him of his father, who was a carpenter, and that the depicted woman really was a \u0026lsquo;western\u0026rsquo; woman, with a handbag resting on her feet, which probably reminded him of his mom.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe second text tries to focus on the painting itself. Here the most important thing he seems to say is that to him painting boils down to \u0026lsquo;putting a line\u0026rsquo; on a canvas and finding new ways to \u0026lsquo;cross\u0026rsquo; the painting from one side to the other. This remark enabled me to see the evolution in his work (focusing on the different ways of creating \u0026lsquo;lines\u0026rsquo;) and to make a presentation of his work for the show \u0026lsquo;XANADU\u0026rsquo; at S.M.A.K. (Ghent) in 2010, whereby I combined older and new paintings for the first time in De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s life. He was so impressed by this presentation, that he thanked me by offering me a water colour showing me as an acrobat building the show.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eIn the years preceding his death I visited him regularly. One day, he showed me his last painting on canvas. On the back of it he had written: \u0026ldquo;De voltooide onvoltooide\u0026rdquo; (The finished unfinished one). We were moved.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eMontagne de Miel, June 26\u003csup\u003eth\u003c/sup\u003e 2018\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n__________\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nHans Theys\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cb\u003eI am a creator, I want to see things and lock them\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nA wayward conversation with Raoul De Keyser\u003c/b\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003ci\u003eOne sunny Sunday afternoon, I drove to the secret residence of the painter Raoul De Keyser (\u0026deg;1930) under a blanket of low-hanging white clouds tinged with shades of blue, purple and grey. In the boot, I had brought a festive cake, which I hoped to share with the artist and his son Piet along with the home-brewed muddy filter coffee, which De Keyser would pour from a distiller\u0026#39;s flask into the waiting cups. A few weeks before that, De Keyser had allowed me access to his studio, where I had the opportunity to film a series of paintings in a different state of readiness. I hadn\u0026#39;t asked him permission for anything else, so when De Keyser began to talk about his work, I felt hesitant, anxious about having seemingly forced myself upon him under false pretences. But I was hardly out of the door when I realized that I should have put the camera down and made myself vulnerable by telling him what I saw, thought and felt, as I always do when an artist takes me in confidence by showing his or her work. Since that missed opportunity to talk to the artist about a beautiful and new series of works, just a few days after their completion, I had continued to dream about a new encounter. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eI know exactly what I want to talk about with De Keyser: about the way the texture of a painting can lead to a new pictorial space as a result of provoked, but at the same time unexpected, derailments. But it seems as if De Keyser can\u0026#39;t imagine such a conversation. He doesn\u0026#39;t want to talk about the texture of his work, he says. Why not? We can only hazard a guess. Perhaps because he has had to answer too many inane questions in the past. Perhaps because he has tried too often to say something useful, but has not found a trace of it in the published texts. Perhaps because he used to write about art himself and had the feeling that he was deceiving the readers. Perhaps because he really believes that there is nothing to say about his work. And perhaps, and this may well be the most important reason, because he no longer remembers everything, or is afraid of remembering things incorrectly. Not only because it is sometimes so long ago, or because his memory is letting him down, but also because things have taken place in such a way that they are not stored by the conscious memory. (The things we remember are impoverished by storing. Things we can no longer remember, such as smells, sometimes come back with full force, because they were stored in an unconscious, more physical way. What about remembering physical events such as the making of a painting?)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eWe are sitting in his front room. De Keyser, his son Piet and I. There are five paintings hanging and standing around us, which the artist has brought together especially for this meeting. He has also compiled a handwritten catalogue, which is on a shelf along with two paintings. We are sitting opposite each other. We look each other straight in the eyes.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eRaoul De Keyser: In 1980, on the occasion of an exhibition at the ICC, someone wrote about me saying that I am a doubter... But that\u0026#39;s not the case at all. If you ask me when I put this or that brushstroke, I often can\u0026#39;t answer, because I can\u0026#39;t remember. It\u0026#39;s difficult to describe an action after the event, because it\u0026#39;s made up of impulse a lot of the time, of escapes and quick skirmishes.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- You\u0026#39;ve told me about this painting (\u0026#39;Untitled\u0026#39;, 1982, Jacobs: 421), which has been in the front room for a few months now, that it came about being \u0026lsquo;repaired\u0026rsquo;. Whenever the absorbent substrate absorbed the colour, you retouched the painting until it remained more or less opaque and stable. This resulted in a comical, almost clumsy, facture. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I have used many different types of canvas. This work is painted on lightly prepared, very absorbent canvas. Right at the start, I painted with oil paint, then I switched to acrylic paint for reasons that I can\u0026#39;t remember or that weren\u0026#39;t very clear, but when I was using acrylic paint, I came to the conclusion that if I used thin layers, the work took no time at all. I wanted to take my time painting. That\u0026#39;s why I started painting with oil again and was glad that the paint was absorbed. The paint disappeared into the canvas while I was painting, so I had to touch it up, add to what had disappeared. The paint didn\u0026#39;t disappear evenly, of course, which resulted in a rather stubborn painting, because you\u0026#39;re always tempted to restore what you lose along the way... The painting is part of a series I exhibited at Richard Foncke in 1980-1982. Together with the paintings based on the monkey puzzle trees in my garden, these were the most important paintings from that period. I called these paintings \u003ci\u003eZacht apeverdriet\u003c/i\u003e, as if you could walk over them... The model of this painting is called \u003ci\u003eTornado\u003c/i\u003e (1981, Jacobs: 402). It has also been \u0026lsquo;repaired\u0026rsquo;.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Why did you use the absorbent canvas if you wanted to work more slowly? That also accelerated the drying process, didn\u0026#39;t it?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, but the result was different. (He is quiet and looks at me.) I don\u0026#39;t want to answer any more questions now. Why don\u0026#39;t you answer your own questions? Then I might learn something.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Because I try to write texts and books that teach us something about the works themselves rather than about the author\u0026#39;s speculations. I can\u0026#39;t imagine that you would be interested in such speculations. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I don\u0026#39;t read about art. I used to write about art myself, but I stopped when I caught myself using the word \u0026#39;field of tension\u0026#39; for the umpteenth time.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- That\u0026#39;s exactly my point. I have never used the word \u0026#39;field of tension\u0026#39;. I\u0026#39;m trying to do something else. But I\u0026#39;m tired, I have to say. And if you want, I can leave now. It\u0026#39;s up to you. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(From the corner of my eye, I can see that De Keyser\u0026#39;s son, who is two metres to his left, is starting to smile. De Keyser is silent and looks at me piercingly. I get up and walk towards the painting in question.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- There used to be a landscape by Jean Brusselmans here. It was a winter landscape. You loved it, because you\u0026#39;d paid a lot of money for it, instead of buying a holiday apartment at the seaside, which is what your wife wanted. What was so special about that painting? I don\u0026#39;t know. I saw it just once, now more than a year ago. But if I remember correctly, the trees seemed to be black and the branches were covered in snow. Snow in a painting, I often find that odd. Because you need white to finish a traditional painting. Thick coats of white can make for a comical effect. And thick coats of white on seemingly black branches produce a fascinating image... Is it a coincidence, then, that the painting that is now taking its place also appears to have a black-and-white structure?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: (Angry.) That\u0026#39;s not black. That\u0026#39;s Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green... I\u0026#39;ve used a lot of green. Sometimes I was tired of it and couldn\u0026#39;t face green for a long time... Piet, can you go and fetch a tube of Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green for us? Wait, I\u0026#39;ll come with you\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(Both men disappear and come back after ten minutes. De Keyser has two new paintings with him. In the meantime, I have looked up Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green: it is a dark green colour created by mixing Prussian blue and \u003ci\u003eGamboge\u003c/i\u003e, an orange-like yellow.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I can only find Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green in acrylic, but I\u0026#39;m sure that it was an oil paint\u0026hellip; I brought along two of the four-part \u003ci\u003eDe Zandvlo\u003c/i\u003e with me. My father made the stretchers for it. Instead of making them 2.5 cm thick, he made them 5 cm thick. It was right here, I\u0026#39;ll never forget. I\u0026#39;d been working at the university all day, I came home at five o\u0026#39;clock, and then I saw this. Where is he? I asked my wife. He was already in the caf\u0026eacute;, celebrating his successful day. I went there to look for him. \u0026ldquo;20 x 30 x 5 cm, that\u0026#39;s not going to be a painting, but a box!\u0026rdquo; I said. But he was satisfied with his work.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; To return to your question about why I used an absorbing surface: the painting is essentially about these traces of this white line. Many of my paintings are an exercise in recalcitrant painting, a purification of lines or surfaces. I used to have a neighbour whose job it was to paint the white lines on the football pitch. He did so with a bucket and a brush. When he was painting, he sometimes had to go back, because the wayward grass resisted... I, too, always searched for forms of waywardness. What is technical competence? Going from A to B. Some do it as straight as possible, others do it waltzing...\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Often, when you place dots or small stains on your canvases, you do so in a space that you left open and you let a thin line of the canvas shine through around the dot or stain. I think that\u0026#39;s funny. And you?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Me too.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- You selected five paintings for our meeting. We are now in front of \u0026#39;Drie hoeken: II\u0026#39; from 1971. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: That, too, was painted on an absorbent canvas.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- The mini-catalogue that you prepared for me states that the painting has been tamponed. What did you use for that? A cloth, paper, a sponge?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I can\u0026#39;t remember.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- We are now looking at \u0026#39;Untitled\u0026#39; (1988, Jacobs: 555), which you describe in the catalogue as \u0026#39;\u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003eVerzonken hoeklijnen in donkergroen, rechtsboven open\u0026#39;\u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003e (Sunk corner lines in dark green, top right open). \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: An old football line that is fading\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- \u0026#39;Studie voor Kerf\u0026#39; (1989) was made later. \u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003eWe see a white horizontal line applied on top of differently coloured surfaces. It seems as if you\u0026#39;ve painted the coloured areas twice. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I don\u0026#39;t think so. But maybe I did, I honestly can\u0026#39;t remember... This painting (\u003ci\u003eSok\u003c/i\u003e, 1971) originally represented a football sock, which I repainted a year later. I\u0026#39;ve repainted things before. In fact, in 1992, I exhibited in a Berlin gallery a series of works that I called \u003ci\u003eSouvenirs massacr\u0026eacute;s\u003c/i\u003e. They were recurring images, of which I knew beforehand that I would repaint them.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Here you painted the edge of the painting white afterwards. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, sometimes I do that when the edge is dirty.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- The canvas is very granular. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, I once experimented with all sorts of different kinds of canvas to see how the same Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green would react to it. I asked my supplier to provide me with as many different kinds of canvas as possible. The result was a canvas of 50 by 50 cm, which consists of nothing but cut out rectangles of canvas that I glued together until they formed a square. Then I painted them with the same colour in the same mixture. Depending on the texture of the canvas, the green becomes darker or lighter. The work is called \u003ci\u003eStudie voor Lamastre\u003c/i\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- What does the title mean?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: The titles of these works refer to towns that surrounded us at our holiday home in France: Lamastre, Chambonas, Vanes... When you visited me in my studio last time, you saw that I\u0026#39;d made many small and narrow strips of cloth in a wide variety of formats. That\u0026#39;s because I want to use up all the canvas I still have. All the leftovers. My son Piet thinks I should buy new canvas, but I love this kind of voluntary poverty.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- What attracts you to the work of Jean Brusselmans?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: His brutality, which is even reflected in his frames and stretchers.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- And in the work of Courbet?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: The skin in his paintings and the density of things... I once set myself the task in Vienna to look at human and animal skin in paintings. I wondered which painters had been able to produce the effect that you would rather see human skin than paint. I found seven or eight outstanding examples. Five of them were by Rubens. One of Courbet.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Last time, we talked about Giacometti. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: In a letter you wrote that I may be attracted to the interiors in that photo book. But the picture I love the most is the one where he crosses the street under his coat. That hood! And then, very romantic, that picture of that caf\u0026eacute; visit with his girlfriend. Amazing! At one time, I was the second visitor to an exhibition with his work at the Mus\u0026eacute;e d\u0026#39;Art Moderne in Paris. There was only one Japanese man in front of me. He had camped out in front of the entrance. I walked straight to the end of the exhibition and then slowly walked back to the crowd. They had used very large plinths, which put me off to some extent\u0026hellip;\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nMontagne de Miel, 30 March 2009\u003c/p\u003e\r\n"},{"locale":"nl","short_description":"","description":"\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n__________\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nHans Theys\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cstrong\u003eIk ben een maker, ik wil het zien en afsluiten\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nEen weerbarstig gesprek met Raoul De Keyser\u003c/strong\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cem\u003eOp een stralende zondagmiddag stuur ik mijn door zichzelf aangedreven voertuig onder laaghangende, aan de onderkant blauw, paars of grijsachtig bewasemde, witte wolkentreinen in de richting van de geheime woning van de schilder Raoul De Keyser (\u0026deg;1930). In de kofferruimte bevindt zich feestelijk gebak, dat ik samen met hem en zijn zoon Piet hoop te verorberen onder het gestaag opslurpen van door Raoul zelf gebrouwen, modderdikke filterkoffie die hij tijdens het gesprek, als uit een distilleerkolf, in kleine dosissen over de wachtende kopjes zal verdelen. Enkele weken geleden liet De Keyser mij toe tot zijn atelier, waar ik een reeks schilderijen, in verschillende toestand van gereedheid, heb mogen filmen. Voor iets anders had ik geen toestemming gevraagd, zodat ik, wanneer De Keyser over zijn werk begon te spreken, schroom voelde, bang mezelf schijnbaar onder valse voorwendsels te hebben opgedrongen. Maar ik was amper buiten, toen ik besefte dat ik de camera opzij had moeten leggen en mezelf kwetsbaar had moeten maken door te vertellen wat ik zag, dacht en voelde, zoals ik altijd doe als een kunstenaar mij in vertrouwen neemt door zijn of haar werk te tonen. Sinds die mislukte kans over een mooie en nieuwe reeks werken te spreken met de kunstenaar, weinig dagen na hun voltooiing, ben ik blijven dromen over een nieuwe ontmoeting.\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eIk weet precies waarover ik met De Keyser wil spreken: over de manier waarop de factuur van een schilderij, door uitgelokte, maar tegelijk onverhoopte ontsporingen, tot een nieuwe picturale ruimte kan leiden. Maar het lijkt alsof De Keyser zich zo\u0026rsquo;n gesprek niet kan voorstellen. Hij wil niet over de factuur van zijn werk spreken, zegt hij. Waarom niet? Daar kunnen we alleen maar naar gissen. Wellicht omdat hij te vaak domme vragen heeft moeten beantwoorden. Wellicht omdat hij te vaak toch geprobeerd heeft iets zinnigs te zeggen, maar er dan niks van terugvond in de gepubliceerde teksten. Wellicht omdat hij vroeger zelf over kunst heeft geschreven en het gevoel had de boel op te lichten. Wellicht omdat hij werkelijk gelooft dat er niks over zijn werk te vertellen valt. En wellicht, en dat is misschien de belangrijkste reden, omdat hij zich niet alles meer herinnert, of bang is zich dingen verkeerd te herinneren. Niet alleen omdat het soms zo lang geleden is, of omdat de kracht van zijn geheugen taant, maar ook omdat de dingen op een zodanige manier hebben plaatsgevonden, dat ze niet zijn opgeslagen door het bewuste geheugen. (De dingen die we ons nog herinneren, zijn verarmd door het opslaan. De dingen die we ons niet meer kunnen herinneren, zoals geuren, komen soms met volle kracht terug, omdat ze op een niet bewuste, meer lichamelijke manier werden bewaard. Wat dan over het onthouden van lichamelijke gebeurtenissen zoals het voltrekken van een schilderij?)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eWe zitten in de woonkamer. De Keyser, zijn zoon Piet en ik. Rondom ons hangen en staan vijf schilderijen, die de kunstenaar speciaal voor deze ontmoeting heeft samengebracht. Hij heeft ook een met de hand geschreven catalogus samengesteld, die naast twee schilderijen op een plankje klaar staat. We zitten tegenover elkaar. We kijken elkaar recht in de ogen.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eRaoul De Keyser: In 1980, naar aanleiding van een tentoonstelling in het ICC, heeft iemand over mij geschreven dat ik een twijfelaar ben\u0026hellip; Maar dat is helemaal niet zo. Als ge mij vraagt wanneer ik die of die penseelstreek heb gezet, dan kan ik daar dikwijls niet op antwoorden, omdat ik het niet meer weet. Het is moeilijk een actie achteraf te verwoorden, omdat er veel impuls bij zit, veel ontsnappingen, veel snelle schermutselingen.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Over dit schilderij (\u0026lsquo;Untitled\u0026rsquo;, 1982, Jacobs: 421), dat sinds een paar maanden in de woonkamer hangt, hebt ge mij verteld dat het al \u0026lsquo;reparerend\u0026rsquo; tot stand is gebracht. Overal waar de zuigende ondergrond de kleur wegtrok, hebt ge het schilderij geretoucheerd tot de laag min of meer dekkend en stabiel bleef. Daardoor ontstond een komische, bijna klungelige factuur. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ik heb veel verschillende soorten doek gebruikt. Dit werk is gemaakt op lichtjes geprepareerd, zeer opslorpend doek. Helemaal in het begin schilderde ik met olieverf, dan ben ik overgeschakeld op acrylverf om redenen die ik mij niet herinner of die niet erg duidelijk waren, maar toen ik volop bezig was met acrylverf, kwam ik tot de vaststelling dat als ik met dunne lagen schilderde, het werk veel te vlug gedaan was. Ik wilde opnieuw lang bezig zijn met schilderen. Daarom ben ik weer met olieverf beginnen schilderen en was ik blij dat de verf opgeslorpt werd. De verf verdween in het doek terwijl ik bezig was, dus moest ik hernemen, aanvullen wat verdwenen was. Die verf verdween niet gelijkmatig, natuurlijk, waardoor er een eerder moeizaam werk ontstond, want ge wilt dan toch aanzuiveren wat ge onderweg kwijtgespeeld zijt\u0026hellip; Het schilderij maakt deel uit van een reeks die ik getoond heb bij Richard Foncke in 1980-1982. Samen met de schilderijen op basis van de apenverdrietbomen in mijn tuin waren dit de voornaamste schilderijen uit die periode. Ik noemde die schilderijen \u003cem\u003eZacht apeverdriet\u003c/em\u003e, alsof je erover zou kunnen lopen\u0026hellip; Het model van dit schilderij heet \u003cem\u003eTornado\u003c/em\u003e (1981, Jacobs: 402). Dat is ook \u0026lsquo;gerepareerd\u0026rsquo;.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vanwaar het zuigende doek als ge trager wilde werken? Dat versnelde het droogproces toch ook?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ja, maar het resultaat was anders. (Hij zwijgt en kijkt mij aan met priemende ogen.) Ik wil geen antwoord meer geven op uw vragen. Waarom antwoordt ge niet zelf op uw vragen? Dan heb ik er misschien ook iets aan.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Omdat ik teksten en boeken probeer te maken die ons iets bijbrengen over de werken zelf in plaats van over de speculaties van de auteur. Ik kan mij trouwens niet voorstellen dat gij ge\u0026iuml;nteresseerd zijt in zo\u0026rsquo;n speculaties. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ik lees geen teksten over kunst. Vroeger schreef ik er zelf, maar ik ben ermee gestopt toen ik mijzelf voor de zoveelste keer het woord \u0026lsquo;spanningsveld\u0026rsquo; zag gebruiken.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Dat is het juist. Ik heb het woord \u0026lsquo;spanningsveld\u0026rsquo; nog nooit gebruikt. Ik probeer juist iets anders te doen. Maar ik ben moe. Dat geef ik toe. En als ge wilt kan ik onmiddellijk vertrekken. Gij moogt kiezen. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(Vanuit een ooghoek zie ik dat De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s zoon, die zich twee meter ter linkerzijde van hem bevindt, begint te glimlachen. De Keyser zwijgt en kijkt mij strak aan. Ik sta op en loop in de richting van het schilderij in kwestie.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vroeger hing hier een landschap van Jean Brusselmans. Het was een winterlandschap. Ge vond het fantastisch, want ge had er veel geld voor betaald, in plaats van een appartement aan zee te kopen, zoals uw vrouw wilde. Wat was er zo bijzonder aan dat schilderij? Ik weet het niet. Ik heb het ook maar \u0026eacute;\u0026eacute;n keer gezien, nu al een jaar geleden. Maar als ik mij goed herinner, schenen de bomen zwart te zijn en lag er sneeuw op hun takken. Sneeuw in een schilderij, dat vind ik dikwijls grappig. Want ge hebt wit nodig om een klassiek schilderij af te werken. Maar dikke pakken wit, dat kan voor een komisch schilderij zorgen. En dikke pakken wit op ogenschijnlijk zwarte takken, dat levert een boeiend beeld op\u0026hellip; Is het toeval dan, dat het schilderij dat nu op dezelfde plek hangt, schijnbaar ook een zwart-wit structuur heeft?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: (Boos.) Dat is geen zwart. Dat is Hooker-groen\u0026hellip; Ik heb heel veel met groen gewerkt. Soms was ik het beu en kon ik een hele tijd geen groen meer zien\u0026hellip; Piet, kunt gij voor ons een tube Hooker-groen gaan zoeken? Wacht, ik kom mee\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(Beide mannen verdwijnen en komen na tien minuten terug. De Keyser heeft twee nieuwe schilderijtjes bij. Intussen heb ik hooker-groen opgezocht: het is een mengsel van Pruisisch blauw en guttegom, een naar saffraan neigend geel.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ik kan alleen Hooker-groen in acryl vinden. Ik ben er nochtans zeker van dat het olieverf was\u0026hellip; Ik heb wel twee werkjes van het vierluik \u003cem\u003eDe Zandvlo\u003c/em\u003e meegebracht. Mijn vader heeft de spieramen ervoor gemaakt. In plaats van 2,5 cm had hij ze 5 cm dik gemaakt. Dat speelde zich hier af, ik zal het nooit vergeten. Ik had de hele dag gewerkt aan de universiteit, ik kwam om vijf uur thuis, en dan zag ik dit resultaat. Waar is hij? vroeg ik aan mijn vrouw. Hij zat al op caf\u0026eacute;, zijn geslaagde dag te vieren. Ik daar naartoe. 20 x 30 x 5 cm, dat is geen schilderij meer, dat wordt een bak! zei ik. Maar hij was tevreden over zijn werk.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; Om terug te keren op uw vraag over de reden waarom ik voor dat schilderij een opslorpende ondergrond heb gebruikt: het gaat om in de eerste plaats om die witte lijnresten. Veel van mijn schilderijen zijn een oefening in moeizaam schilderen, een aanzuiveren van lijnen of vlakken. Vroeger had ik een buurman die de witte lijnen op het voetbalveld aanbracht. Hij deed dat nog met een emmer en een kwast. Tijdens het schilderen moest hij zich soms herpakken, omdat het weerbarstige gras zich verzette\u0026hellip; Ik heb ook altijd gezocht naar vormen van weerbarstigheid. Wat is technisch kunnen? Het overcrossen van daar naar daar. Sommigen doen dat zo rechtlijnig mogelijk, een ander doet dat al walsend\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Dikwijls, als ge bolletjes of kleine vlekjes plaatst op uw doeken, dan doet ge dat in een uitgespaard vlakje en laat ge een dun lijntje van de ondergrond doorschemeren rond het toegevoegde vlakje. Ik vind dat grappig. Vindt gij dat ook grappig?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ja, ik vind dat ook grappig.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Ge hebt vijf schilderijen klaar gezet voor onze ontmoeting. We staan nu voor \u0026lsquo;Drie hoeken: II\u0026rsquo; uit 1971. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Het is ook geschilderd op zuigend doek.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- In de mini-catalogus die ge voor mij hebt gemaakt, staat dat het schilderij getamponneerd is. Wat hebt ge daarvoor gebruikt? Een doek, papier, een spons?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Dat weet ik niet meer.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Nu kijken we naar \u0026lsquo;Untitled\u0026rsquo; (1988, Jacobs: 555), dat ge in de catalogus omschrijft als \u0026lsquo;Verzonken hoeklijnen in donkergroen, rechtsboven open\u0026rsquo;. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Een oude voetballijn die vervaagt\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- \u0026lsquo;Studie voor \u0026ldquo;Kerf\u0026rdquo;\u0026rsquo; (1989) hebt ge later gemaakt. We zien een witte horizontale streep die bovenop verschillend gekleurde vlakken werd aangebracht. Het lijkt alsof ge de kleurvlakken twee keer geschilderd hebt. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Dat denk ik niet. Maar het zou kunnen. Ik ben het misschien vergeten\u0026hellip; Op dit schilderij (\u003cem\u003eSok\u003c/em\u003e, 1971) stond oorspronkelijk een voetbalkous, die ik na een jaar bedekt heb. Ik heb wel vaker dingen overschilderd. In 1992 heb ik in een Berlijnse galerie een reeks werken getoond die ik \u003cem\u003eSouvenirs massacr\u0026eacute;s\u003c/em\u003e heb genoemd. Het ging om steeds terugkerende beelden, waarvan ik vooraf wist dat ik ze zou overschilderen.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Hier heb je de boord van het schilderij achteraf wit geschilderd. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ja, soms doe ik dat, als de boord bevuild is.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Het doek is heel korrelig. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Ja, ik heb ooit een experiment ondernomen met allerlei verschillende soorten doek, om te zien hoe hetzelfde Hooker-groen erop zou reageren. Ik vroeg mijn leverancier om mij zoveel mogelijk verschillende soorten doek te bezorgen. Het resultaat was een doek van 50 bij 50 cm, dat bestaat uit allemaal rechthoekjes die ik naast elkaar heb geplakt tot ze een vierkant vormden. Daarna heb ik ze beschilderd met dezelfde kleur in dezelfde menging. Naargelang van de textuur van het doek wordt het groen donkerder of lichter. Het werk heet \u003cem\u003eStudie voor Lamastre\u003c/em\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Wat betekent de titel?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: De titels van deze werken zijn namen van gemeenten die ons, gezien vanuit onze standplaats in Frankrijk, omringden: Lamastre, Chambonas, Vanes\u0026hellip; Tijdens uw bezoek aan het atelier, vorige keer, hebt ge gezien dat ik veel smalle en kleine doekjes heb gemaakt op heel uiteenlopende formaten. Dat komt door het feit dat ik al het doek wil gebruiken dat ik nog heb. Alle restjes. Mijn zoon Piet vindt dat ik nieuw doek moet kopen, maar ik hou van die vrijwillige armoede.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Wat trekt u aan in het werk van Jean Brusselmans?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Zijn brutaliteit, die zich zelfs toont in de zelf gemaakte kaders en spieramen.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- En in het werk van Courbet?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: De huid van zijn schilderijen en de dichtheid van de dingen\u0026hellip; Ik heb mezelf in Wenen eens de opdracht gegeven in schilderijen te kijken naar mensenhuid en dierenhuid. Ik vroeg mij af bij welke schilders je eerder de mensenhuid zou waarnemen dan de verf op het doek. Ik vond 7 of 8 mooie voorbeelden. Vijf ervan waren van Rubens. E\u0026eacute;n van Courbet.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vorige keer hadden we het over Giacometti. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: In een brief schrijft ge dat ik misschien aangetrokken wordt door de interieurs in dat fotoboek. Maar ik hou het meest van de foto waar hij onder zijn jas de straat oversteekt. Die capuchon! En dan, zeer romantisch, die foto van dat caf\u0026eacute;bezoek met zijn vriendin. Formidabel! Ik was eens de tweede bezoeker van een tentoonstelling met zijn werk in het Mus\u0026eacute;e d\u0026rsquo;Art Moderne in Parijs. Er was nog een Japanner voor mij. Die had gekampeerd voor de ingang. Ik ben meteen naar het einde van de tentoonstelling gelopen en ben dan rustig terug gewandeld, de menigte tegemoet. Ze hadden zeer grote sokkels gebruikt. Daar had ik moeite mee\u0026hellip;\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nMontagne de Miel, 29 maart 2009\u003c/p\u003e\r\n"},{"locale":"fr","short_description":"","description":"\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n__________\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nHans Theys\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cstrong\u003eJe suis un cr\u0026eacute;ateur, je veux voir les choses et les cerner\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nUn entretien r\u0026eacute;calcitrant avec Raoul De Keyser\u003c/strong\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cem\u003ePar un dimanche apr\u0026egrave;s-midi radieux, je suis au volant de mon v\u0026eacute;hicule automoteur sous des trains de nuages bas et blancs dont la partie inf\u0026eacute;rieure s\u0026#39;est embu\u0026eacute;e de teintes bleues, mauves ou grises. Je me rends au domicile secret du peintre Raoul De Keyser (\u0026deg;1930). Dans le coffre, une p\u0026acirc;tisserie festive que j\u0026#39;esp\u0026egrave;re savourer avec lui et son fils Piet tout en nous abreuvant d\u0026#39;un caf\u0026eacute; extra noir que Raoul aura pr\u0026eacute;par\u0026eacute; lui-m\u0026ecirc;me et qu\u0026#39;il r\u0026eacute;partira, au cours de l\u0026#39;entretien, par petites doses dans les tasses.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; Il y a quelques semaines, De Keyser m\u0026#39;a permis d\u0026#39;acc\u0026eacute;der \u0026agrave; son atelier o\u0026ugrave; j\u0026#39;ai pu filmer une s\u0026eacute;rie de toiles \u0026agrave; des stades de r\u0026eacute;alisation diff\u0026eacute;rents. Il s\u0026#39;agissait de la seule chose pour laquelle j\u0026#39;avais demand\u0026eacute; son autorisation. C\u0026#39;est pourquoi, lorsqu\u0026rsquo;il s\u0026#39;est mis \u0026agrave; me parler de son travail, j\u0026#39;ai ressenti une appr\u0026eacute;hension, craignant de donner l\u0026rsquo;impression de lui avoir rendu visite sous de faux pr\u0026eacute;textes. Mais \u0026agrave; peine sorti, j\u0026#39;ai r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute; que j\u0026#39;aurais d\u0026ucirc; mettre la cam\u0026eacute;ra de c\u0026ocirc;t\u0026eacute; et me rendre vuln\u0026eacute;rable en racontant ce que je voyais, pensais et ressentais, comme je le fais chaque fois qu\u0026#39;un artiste me prend pour confident en me montrant son travail.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; Depuis cette occasion manqu\u0026eacute;e de discuter avec l\u0026#39;artiste d\u0026#39;une belle et nouvelle s\u0026eacute;rie d\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvres qui avaient \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute;es quelques jours auparavant, je n\u0026#39;ai cess\u0026eacute; de r\u0026ecirc;ver d\u0026rsquo;une nouvelle rencontre. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eJe sais exactement de quoi je veux parler avec De Keyser : de la mani\u0026egrave;re dont la facture d\u0026#39;une peinture peut induire un nouvel espace pictural par des d\u0026eacute;rapages qui, s\u0026#39;ils sont suscit\u0026eacute;s par l\u0026#39;artiste, n\u0026#39;en sont pas moins inattendus.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nMais De Keyser semble ne pas pouvoir imaginer une telle conversation. Il ne veut pas parler de la facture de son \u0026oelig;uvre, dit-il. Pourquoi ? Nous ne pouvons \u0026eacute;mettre que des conjectures \u0026agrave; ce propos. Peut-\u0026ecirc;tre parce qu\u0026#39;il a d\u0026ucirc; r\u0026eacute;pondre trop souvent \u0026agrave; des questions idiotes. Peut-\u0026ecirc;tre parce qu\u0026#39;il a trop souvent essay\u0026eacute; de dire des choses sens\u0026eacute;es mais qu\u0026#39;il n\u0026#39;a pas retrouv\u0026eacute; ces propos dans les textes publi\u0026eacute;s. Peut-\u0026ecirc;tre parce qu\u0026#39;il a autrefois \u0026eacute;crit lui-m\u0026ecirc;me sur l\u0026#39;art et qu\u0026#39;il avait l\u0026#39;impression d\u0026#39;arnaquer son monde. Peut-\u0026ecirc;tre parce qu\u0026#39;il croit r\u0026eacute;ellement qu\u0026#39;il n\u0026#39;y a rien \u0026agrave; raconter sur son \u0026oelig;uvre. Et peut-\u0026ecirc;tre \u0026ndash; et il se peut qu\u0026#39;il s\u0026#39;agisse l\u0026agrave; de la raison principale \u0026ndash; parce qu\u0026#39;il ne se souvient plus de tout ou qu\u0026#39;il craint que certains souvenirs soient erron\u0026eacute;s. Pas seulement parce que les faits remontent \u0026agrave; trop longtemps ou parce que sa m\u0026eacute;moire d\u0026eacute;cline, mais \u0026eacute;galement parce que les choses se sont pass\u0026eacute;es de mani\u0026egrave;re telle qu\u0026#39;elles n\u0026#39;ont pas \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; enregistr\u0026eacute;es par la m\u0026eacute;moire consciente. (Les choses dont nous nous souvenons ont \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; appauvries du fait qu\u0026#39;elles ont \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; stock\u0026eacute;es. Celles dont nous ne nous souvenons plus consciemment, comme les odeurs, ressurgissent quelquefois avec force parce qu\u0026#39;elles ont \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; conserv\u0026eacute;es d\u0026#39;une mani\u0026egrave;re non consciente, davantage physique. Qu\u0026#39;en est-il alors du souvenir d\u0026rsquo;\u0026eacute;v\u0026eacute;nements physiques tels que la r\u0026eacute;alisation d\u0026#39;une peinture ?) \u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eNous sommes install\u0026eacute;s dans la salle de s\u0026eacute;jour. De Keyser, son fils Piet et moi.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nAutour de nous, l\u0026#39;artiste a accroch\u0026eacute; ou plac\u0026eacute; debout cinq peintures qu\u0026#39;il a sp\u0026eacute;cialement r\u0026eacute;unies pour cette rencontre. Il a \u0026eacute;galement compos\u0026eacute; un catalogue manuscrit qui repose sur une \u0026eacute;tag\u0026egrave;re \u0026agrave; c\u0026ocirc;t\u0026eacute; de deux peintures. Nous sommes assis face \u0026agrave; face. Nous nous regardons droit dans les yeux.\u0026nbsp; \u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eRaoul De Keyser : En 1980, suite \u0026agrave; une exposition \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;ICC, on a \u0026eacute;crit que j\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;tais un sceptique\u0026hellip; Mais ce n\u0026#39;est pas du tout le cas. Lorsqu\u0026#39;on me demande quand j\u0026#39;ai appos\u0026eacute; tel ou tel coup de pinceau, il m\u0026#39;arrive souvent de ne pas pouvoir r\u0026eacute;pondre parce que je ne m\u0026#39;en souviens plus. Il est difficile d\u0026#39;exprimer une action en paroles a posteriori parce qu\u0026#39;il y a une grande part d\u0026#39;impulsion dans cette action, de nombreuses \u0026eacute;vasions, de nombreux diff\u0026eacute;rends fugaces.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vous m\u0026#39;avez dit, \u0026agrave; propos de cette toile (\u0026lsquo;Untitled\u0026rsquo;, 1982, Jacobs: 421) qui est accroch\u0026eacute;e dans la salle de s\u0026eacute;jour depuis quelques mois, qu\u0026#39;elle avait \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute;e en la \u0026lsquo;retouchant\u0026rsquo;. Vous avez continu\u0026eacute; \u0026agrave; la retoucher tant que la couleur appliqu\u0026eacute;e \u0026eacute;tait absorb\u0026eacute;e par le support et jusqu\u0026#39;\u0026agrave; ce que la couleur soit plus ou moins stable. Cette op\u0026eacute;ration a engendr\u0026eacute; une facture comique, presque maladroite.\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : J\u0026#39;ai utilis\u0026eacute; plusieurs types de toile. Cette \u0026oelig;uvre a \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute;e sur une toile l\u0026eacute;g\u0026egrave;rement appr\u0026ecirc;t\u0026eacute;e, tr\u0026egrave;s absorbante. Au tout d\u0026eacute;but, j\u0026#39;utilisais de la peinture \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;huile. Je suis ensuite pass\u0026eacute; \u0026agrave; la peinture acrylique pour des raisons que je ne me rappelle pas ou qui n\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;taient pas tr\u0026egrave;s claires. Mais alors que je n\u0026#39;utilisais plus que de la peinture acrylique, j\u0026#39;ai constat\u0026eacute; que si je peignais par fines couches, le travail serait termin\u0026eacute; tr\u0026egrave;s vite. Je voulais \u0026agrave; nouveau consacrer beaucoup de temps \u0026agrave; la peinture. C\u0026#39;est pourquoi je suis revenu \u0026agrave; la peinture \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;huile. J\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;tais content que la peinture soit absorb\u0026eacute;e. Elle disparaissait dans la toile pendant la r\u0026eacute;alisation du travail. Je devais donc recommencer, compl\u0026eacute;ter ce qui avait disparu. Naturellement, la peinture ne disparaissait pas uniform\u0026eacute;ment, ce qui compliquait pas mal le travail car je voulais combler ce que j\u0026#39;avais perdu en chemin\u0026hellip;\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; La peinture fait partie d\u0026#39;une s\u0026eacute;rie d\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvres que j\u0026#39;ai expos\u0026eacute;e chez Richard Foncke en 1980-1982. Elles ont constitu\u0026eacute;, avec les peintures r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute;es sur base des d\u0026eacute;sespoirs du singe de mon jardin, les \u0026oelig;uvres principales de cette p\u0026eacute;riode.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nJe les ai appel\u0026eacute;es \u003cem\u003eZacht Apeverdriet\u003c/em\u003e (Doux d\u0026eacute;sespoir du singe) comme si on pouvait marcher dessus\u0026hellip; Le mod\u0026egrave;le de cette peinture s\u0026#39;appelle \u003cem\u003eTornado\u003c/em\u003e (1981, Jacobs : 402). Elle a \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; \u0026lsquo;retouch\u0026eacute;e\u0026rsquo;, elle aussi.\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- D\u0026#39;o\u0026ugrave; la toile absorbante lorsque vous vouliez travailler plus lentement ? Elle acc\u0026eacute;l\u0026eacute;rait tout de m\u0026ecirc;me le processus de s\u0026eacute;chage, non ? \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Oui, mais le r\u0026eacute;sultat \u0026eacute;tait diff\u0026eacute;rent. (Il se tait et me fixe avec des yeux per\u0026ccedil;ants). Je ne veux plus r\u0026eacute;pondre \u0026agrave; vos questions. Pourquoi n\u0026#39;y r\u0026eacute;pondez-vous pas vous-m\u0026ecirc;me ? Cela me sera peut-\u0026ecirc;tre utile.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Parce que j\u0026#39;essaie d\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;crire des textes et des livres qui nous apprennent quelque chose sur les \u0026oelig;uvres proprement dites et non sur les sp\u0026eacute;culations de l\u0026#39;auteur. Je ne peux d\u0026#39;ailleurs pas concevoir que de telles sp\u0026eacute;culations vous int\u0026eacute;resseraient. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Je ne lis pas de textes qui traitent de l\u0026#39;art. Autrefois, j\u0026#39;en r\u0026eacute;digeais moi-m\u0026ecirc;me mais j\u0026#39;ai arr\u0026ecirc;t\u0026eacute; lorsque je me suis vu utiliser le terme \u0026#39;champ de tension\u0026#39; pour la \u0026eacute;ni\u0026egrave;me fois.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Justement. En ce qui me concerne, je n\u0026#39;ai encore jamais utilis\u0026eacute; le terme \u0026lsquo;champ de tension\u0026rsquo;. J\u0026#39;essaie justement de faire autre chose. Mais je suis fatigu\u0026eacute;. Je l\u0026#39;avoue. Et si vous voulez, je peux m\u0026#39;en aller tout de suite. C\u0026#39;est vous qui choisissez. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(Du coin de l\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;il, je vois que le fils de De Keyser, qui se trouve deux m\u0026egrave;tres \u0026agrave; sa gauche, se met \u0026agrave; sourire. De Keyser se tait et me regarde fixement. Je me l\u0026egrave;ve et me dirige vers la peinture en question).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Auparavant, c\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;tait un paysage de Jean Brusselmans qui \u0026eacute;tait accroch\u0026eacute; ici. Il s\u0026#39;agissait d\u0026#39;un paysage d\u0026#39;hiver. Vous le trouviez fantastique car vous l\u0026#39;aviez pay\u0026eacute; cher, au lieu d\u0026#39;acheter un appartement \u0026agrave; la mer comme votre femme le souhaitait. Qu\u0026#39;est-ce que cette peinture avait de si particulier ? Je ne sais pas. Je ne l\u0026#39;ai vue qu\u0026#39;une seule fois, il y a un an. Mais si je me souviens bien, les arbres semblaient \u0026ecirc;tre noirs et leurs branches \u0026eacute;taient couvertes de neige. Je trouve la pr\u0026eacute;sence de neige sur une peinture souvent amusante. Car on a besoin de blanc (ou de jaune de Naples) pour parachever une peinture classique. Mais la pr\u0026eacute;sence de gros paquets de blanc peut donner un aspect comique \u0026agrave; la peinture. De plus, de gros paquets de blanc sur des branches en apparence noires, cela donne une image captivante\u0026hellip; Est-ce un hasard si la peinture qui est maintenant accroch\u0026eacute;e au m\u0026ecirc;me endroit semble \u0026ecirc;tre dot\u0026eacute;e, elle aussi, d\u0026#39;une structure noir-blanc ?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : (F\u0026acirc;ch\u0026eacute;.) Ce n\u0026#39;est pas du noir. C\u0026#39;est du vert Hooker\u0026hellip; J\u0026#39;ai \u0026eacute;norm\u0026eacute;ment travaill\u0026eacute; avec le vert. Parfois, j\u0026#39;en avais assez et je ne pouvais plus voir cette couleur pendant tout un temps\u0026hellip; Piet, peux-tu aller chercher un tube de vert Hooker pour nous ? Attends, je viens avec toi\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e(Les deux hommes disparaissent et reviennent dix minutes plus tard. De Keyser a amen\u0026eacute; deux nouvelles peintures. J\u0026#39;ai entretemps effectu\u0026eacute; une recherche sur le vert Hooker : il s\u0026#39;agit d\u0026#39;un m\u0026eacute;lange de Bleu de Prusse et de gamboge, un jaune orang\u0026eacute;.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Je ne trouve le vert Hooker qu\u0026#39;en acrylique. Je suis pourtant certain que c\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;tait de la peinture \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;huile\u0026hellip; J\u0026#39;ai amen\u0026eacute; deux tableaux du quadriptyque \u003cem\u003eDe Zandvlo\u003c/em\u003e. C\u0026#39;est mon p\u0026egrave;re qui en a r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute; les ch\u0026acirc;ssis. Il les a fabriqu\u0026eacute;s avec une \u0026eacute;paisseur de 5 cm au lieu de 2,5 cm. Cela s\u0026#39;est pass\u0026eacute; ici, je ne l\u0026#39;oublierai jamais. J\u0026#39;avais travaill\u0026eacute; toute la journ\u0026eacute;e \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;universit\u0026eacute;, je suis revenu \u0026agrave; cinq heures et j\u0026#39;ai vu le r\u0026eacute;sultat. O\u0026ugrave; est-il ? ai-je demand\u0026eacute; \u0026agrave; ma femme. Il \u0026eacute;tait d\u0026eacute;j\u0026agrave; en train de f\u0026ecirc;ter sa journ\u0026eacute;e r\u0026eacute;ussie au caf\u0026eacute;. Je l\u0026#39;ai rejoint. 20 x 30 x 5 cm, ce n\u0026#39;est plus une peinture, c\u0026#39;est un bac ! ai-je dit. Mais il \u0026eacute;tait satisfait de son travail.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; Pour en revenir \u0026agrave; ta question sur la peinture au support absorbant : l\u0026rsquo;essentiel ce sont ces r\u0026eacute;sidus du trait blanc. Beaucoup de mes toiles sont un exercice d\u0026rsquo;une peinture r\u0026eacute;calcitrante, un \u0026eacute;purement de traits et d\u0026#39;aplats. J\u0026#39;avais autrefois un voisin qui tra\u0026ccedil;ait les lignes blanches sur le terrain de football. Il faisait encore cela avec un seau et une brosse. Il devait parfois recommencer parce que l\u0026#39;herbe r\u0026eacute;calcitrante r\u0026eacute;sistait. J\u0026#39;ai moi aussi toujours cherch\u0026eacute; des formes d\u0026#39;indocilit\u0026eacute;. Qu\u0026#39;est-ce que la capacit\u0026eacute; technique ? La travers\u0026eacute;e d\u0026#39;un point \u0026agrave; un autre. Certains le feront de mani\u0026egrave;re aussi lin\u0026eacute;aire que possible, d\u0026#39;autres le feront en valsant\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Souvent, lorsque vous appliquez de petites sph\u0026egrave;res ou de petites taches sur vos toiles, vous le faites sur une surface laiss\u0026eacute;e en blanc et vous faites transpara\u0026icirc;tre un fin trait du support autour de l\u0026#39;aplat ajout\u0026eacute;. Je trouve cela amusant. Vous aussi ? \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Oui, je trouve cela amusant aussi.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vous avez accroch\u0026eacute; cinq peintures pour notre rencontre. Nous nous trouvons \u0026agrave; pr\u0026eacute;sent devant \u0026lsquo;Drie Hoeken : II\u0026rsquo; de 1971. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Elle a \u0026eacute;galement \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; peinte sur une toile absorbante.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Le mini catalogue que vous avez r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute; pour moi indique que la peinture a \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; tamponn\u0026eacute;e. Qu\u0026#39;avez-vous utilis\u0026eacute; \u0026agrave; cet effet ? Un tissu, du papier, une \u0026eacute;ponge ? \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Je ne sais plus.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Nous regardons \u0026agrave; pr\u0026eacute;sent \u0026lsquo;Untitled\u0026rsquo; (1988, Jacobs: 555), que vous d\u0026eacute;crivez dans le catalogue comme \u0026lsquo;Des diagonales noy\u0026eacute;es dans le vert fonc\u0026eacute;, ouvertes dans la partie sup\u0026eacute;rieure droite\u0026rsquo;.\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Une vieille ligne de football qui s\u0026#39;estompe\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Plus tard, vous avez r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute; \u0026lsquo;Studie voor \u0026ldquo;Kerf\u0026rdquo;\u0026rsquo; (1989). Nous voyons une ligne horizontale blanche qui a \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; appliqu\u0026eacute;e au-dessus de plusieurs aplats. On dirait que les aplats ont \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; peints deux fois.\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Je ne pense pas, mais cela se pourrait. J\u0026#39;ai peut-\u0026ecirc;tre oubli\u0026eacute;\u0026hellip; Sur cette peinture, (\u003cem\u003eSok\u003c/em\u003e, 1971) figurait initialement une chaussette de football, que j\u0026#39;ai recouverte un an apr\u0026egrave;s. Il m\u0026#39;est souvent arriv\u0026eacute; de peindre par-dessus des choses. En 1992, j\u0026#39;ai expos\u0026eacute;, dans une galerie de Berlin, une s\u0026eacute;rie d\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvres que j\u0026#39;ai nomm\u0026eacute;es \u003cem\u003eSouvenirs massacr\u0026eacute;s\u003c/em\u003e. Il s\u0026#39;agissait d\u0026#39;images r\u0026eacute;currentes dont je savais \u0026agrave; l\u0026#39;avance que j\u0026#39;allais les recouvrir.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Vous avez ici peint le bord de la peinture en blanc ult\u0026eacute;rieurement. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Oui, je fais parfois cela lorsque le bord a \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; sali.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- La toile est tr\u0026egrave;s granuleuse. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Oui, j\u0026#39;ai un jour exp\u0026eacute;riment\u0026eacute; toutes sortes de toiles diff\u0026eacute;rentes pour voir comment le m\u0026ecirc;me vert Hooker allait r\u0026eacute;agir. J\u0026#39;ai demand\u0026eacute; \u0026agrave; mon fournisseur de me procurer autant de types de toiles diff\u0026eacute;rents que possible. Le r\u0026eacute;sultat fut une toile de 50 cm sur 50 compos\u0026eacute;e uniquement de petits rectangles que j\u0026#39;ai coll\u0026eacute;s l\u0026rsquo;un \u0026agrave; c\u0026ocirc;t\u0026eacute; de l\u0026rsquo;autre jusqu\u0026#39;\u0026agrave; ce qu\u0026#39;ils forment un carr\u0026eacute;. Ensuite, je les ai peints de la m\u0026ecirc;me couleur, dans le m\u0026ecirc;me m\u0026eacute;lange. Le vert s\u0026#39;assombrit ou s\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;claircit en fonction de la texture de la toile. L\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvre se nomme \u003cem\u003eStudie voor Lamastre\u003c/em\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Que signifie le titre?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Les titres de ces \u0026oelig;uvres sont des noms de communes qui nous entouraient, depuis notre emplacement en France : Lamastre, Chambonas, Vanes\u0026hellip; Lorsque vous avez visit\u0026eacute; l\u0026#39;atelier, la derni\u0026egrave;re fois, vous avez vu que j\u0026#39;avais r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute; de nombreuses toiles petites et \u0026eacute;troites dans des formats tr\u0026egrave;s divers. Ceci est d\u0026ucirc; au fait que je veux utiliser toute la toile qu\u0026#39;il me reste. Tous les petits restes. Mon fils Piet pense que je dois acheter de la nouvelle toile mais moi, j\u0026#39;aime cette pauvret\u0026eacute; volontaire.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Qu\u0026#39;est-ce qui vous attire dans l\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvre de Jean Brusselmans ?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Sa brutalit\u0026eacute;, qui appara\u0026icirc;t m\u0026ecirc;me dans les cadres et les ch\u0026acirc;ssis qu\u0026#39;il a r\u0026eacute;alis\u0026eacute;s lui-m\u0026ecirc;me.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- Et dans l\u0026#39;\u0026oelig;uvre de Courbet ?\u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : L\u0026#39;\u0026eacute;piderme de ses peintures et la proximit\u0026eacute; des choses\u0026hellip; Un jour \u0026agrave; Vienne, je me suis donn\u0026eacute; pour mission de regarder la peau humaine et la peau animale sur les peintures. Je me suis demand\u0026eacute; chez quels peintres on observerait davantage la peau humaine que la peinture sur la toile. J\u0026#39;ai trouv\u0026eacute; 7 ou 8 beaux exemples. Parmi ceux-ci, il y en avait 5 de Rubens et un de Courbet. \u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003e\u003cem\u003e- La derni\u0026egrave;re fois, nous avons parl\u0026eacute; de Giacometti. \u003c/em\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eDe Keyser : Dans une lettre, vous \u0026eacute;crivez que je suis peut-\u0026ecirc;tre attir\u0026eacute; par les int\u0026eacute;rieurs dans ce livre de photos. Mais la photo que je pr\u0026eacute;f\u0026egrave;re, c\u0026#39;est celle sur laquelle il traverse la rue sous sa veste. Ce capuchon ! Et puis, elle est tr\u0026egrave;s romantique, cette photo sur laquelle il est au caf\u0026eacute; avec son amie. Formidable ! J\u0026#39;ai un jour \u0026eacute;t\u0026eacute; le deuxi\u0026egrave;me visiteur d\u0026#39;une exposition de son \u0026oelig;uvre au Mus\u0026eacute;e d\u0026#39;Art Moderne \u0026agrave; Paris. Il n\u0026rsquo;y avait devant moi qu\u0026rsquo;un Japonais qui avait camp\u0026eacute; devant l\u0026#39;entr\u0026eacute;e.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: justify;\"\u003eJe me suis imm\u0026eacute;diatement rendu \u0026agrave; la fin de l\u0026#39;exposition et je suis revenu calmement en arri\u0026egrave;re, \u0026agrave; contresens de la foule. Ils avaient utilis\u0026eacute; de tr\u0026egrave;s grands socles qui ne me plaisaient pas\u0026hellip;\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nMontagne de Miel, 30 mars 2009\u003c/p\u003e\r\n"},{"locale":"ru","short_description":"","description":""},{"locale":"de","short_description":"","description":"\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eAbstract\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe current interviews with Raoul De Keyser, done four and three years before his death, were not meant to be. The painter didn\u0026rsquo;t want to receive journalists anymore. Having written art reviews himself, he didn\u0026rsquo;t believe in them. Furthermore, it annoyed him that they always started talking about other painters, as if his work wouldn\u0026rsquo;t be sufficient. \u0026ldquo;Don\u0026rsquo;t they understand I am narcissistic?\u0026rdquo; he asked me rhetorically.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eOn the other hand, he was longing to talk about his work with somebody who wasn\u0026rsquo;t blind. The second time I met him, he had created a small solo show in his living room with paintings that were dear to him. He even had made a small catalogue.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eHowever, whenever I tried to talk about the material conditions of his work, he became reluctant to speak. The first reason might have been the fact that painters sometimes really don\u0026rsquo;t know what they have \u0026lsquo;done\u0026rsquo;. The painter Walter Swennen summarized this feeling by telling me that \u0026ldquo;Whenever I tell somebody how I have made something, I have the impression to be lying\u0026rdquo;. Filming this painter while he was at work, I noticed that some things happen so quickly, that it actually must be impossible sometimes to recount what happened. (Also, a lot of things that happen are not the result of decisions, but of reactions to things that occur, or of attempts to avoid something from occurring.) The second reason for De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s reluctance, might have been that he was losing his memory, and that he was afraid to be inaccurate himself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaking with De Keyser at that time was also difficult, because his hearing was impaired. Sometimes this prevents the collocutor from being subtle, making a joke, being himself or herself.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe first text is mainly about my first impression that parts of De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s paintings seemed to be floating apart. And I wondered whether this resulted from an original way of seeing things, or whether it grew out of the work itself. (De Keyser believed the latter.) However, this conversation led him to show me a picture of a sculpture by Giacometti, which moved him a lot, he said. At the time, I could only notice that this sculpture also seemed to be constituted of separate parts. But later I realized that it must have reminded him of his father, who was a carpenter, and that the depicted woman really was a \u0026lsquo;western\u0026rsquo; woman, with a handbag resting on her feet, which probably reminded him of his mom.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eThe second text tries to focus on the painting itself. Here the most important thing he seems to say is that to him painting boils down to \u0026lsquo;putting a line\u0026rsquo; on a canvas and finding new ways to \u0026lsquo;cross\u0026rsquo; the painting from one side to the other. This remark enabled me to see the evolution in his work (focusing on the different ways of creating \u0026lsquo;lines\u0026rsquo;) and to make a presentation of his work for the show \u0026lsquo;XANADU\u0026rsquo; at S.M.A.K. (Ghent) in 2010, whereby I combined older and new paintings for the first time in De Keyser\u0026rsquo;s life. He was so impressed by this presentation, that he thanked me by offering me a water colour showing me as an acrobat building the show.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eIn the years preceding his death I visited him regularly. One day, he showed me his last painting on canvas. On the back of it he had written: \u0026ldquo;De voltooide onvoltooide\u0026rdquo; (The finished unfinished one). We were moved.\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eMontagne de Miel, June 26\u003csup\u003eth\u003c/sup\u003e 2018\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n__________\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nHans Theys\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cb\u003eI am a creator, I want to see things and lock them\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nA wayward conversation with Raoul De Keyser\u003c/b\u003e\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003ci\u003eOne sunny Sunday afternoon, I drove to the secret residence of the painter Raoul De Keyser (\u0026deg;1930) under a blanket of low-hanging white clouds tinged with shades of blue, purple and grey. In the boot, I had brought a festive cake, which I hoped to share with the artist and his son Piet along with the home-brewed muddy filter coffee, which De Keyser would pour from a distiller\u0026#39;s flask into the waiting cups. A few weeks before that, De Keyser had allowed me access to his studio, where I had the opportunity to film a series of paintings in a different state of readiness. I hadn\u0026#39;t asked him permission for anything else, so when De Keyser began to talk about his work, I felt hesitant, anxious about having seemingly forced myself upon him under false pretences. But I was hardly out of the door when I realized that I should have put the camera down and made myself vulnerable by telling him what I saw, thought and felt, as I always do when an artist takes me in confidence by showing his or her work. Since that missed opportunity to talk to the artist about a beautiful and new series of works, just a few days after their completion, I had continued to dream about a new encounter. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eI know exactly what I want to talk about with De Keyser: about the way the texture of a painting can lead to a new pictorial space as a result of provoked, but at the same time unexpected, derailments. But it seems as if De Keyser can\u0026#39;t imagine such a conversation. He doesn\u0026#39;t want to talk about the texture of his work, he says. Why not? We can only hazard a guess. Perhaps because he has had to answer too many inane questions in the past. Perhaps because he has tried too often to say something useful, but has not found a trace of it in the published texts. Perhaps because he used to write about art himself and had the feeling that he was deceiving the readers. Perhaps because he really believes that there is nothing to say about his work. And perhaps, and this may well be the most important reason, because he no longer remembers everything, or is afraid of remembering things incorrectly. Not only because it is sometimes so long ago, or because his memory is letting him down, but also because things have taken place in such a way that they are not stored by the conscious memory. (The things we remember are impoverished by storing. Things we can no longer remember, such as smells, sometimes come back with full force, because they were stored in an unconscious, more physical way. What about remembering physical events such as the making of a painting?)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eWe are sitting in his front room. De Keyser, his son Piet and I. There are five paintings hanging and standing around us, which the artist has brought together especially for this meeting. He has also compiled a handwritten catalogue, which is on a shelf along with two paintings. We are sitting opposite each other. We look each other straight in the eyes.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eRaoul De Keyser: In 1980, on the occasion of an exhibition at the ICC, someone wrote about me saying that I am a doubter... But that\u0026#39;s not the case at all. If you ask me when I put this or that brushstroke, I often can\u0026#39;t answer, because I can\u0026#39;t remember. It\u0026#39;s difficult to describe an action after the event, because it\u0026#39;s made up of impulse a lot of the time, of escapes and quick skirmishes.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- You\u0026#39;ve told me about this painting (\u0026#39;Untitled\u0026#39;, 1982, Jacobs: 421), which has been in the front room for a few months now, that it came about being \u0026lsquo;repaired\u0026rsquo;. Whenever the absorbent substrate absorbed the colour, you retouched the painting until it remained more or less opaque and stable. This resulted in a comical, almost clumsy, facture. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I have used many different types of canvas. This work is painted on lightly prepared, very absorbent canvas. Right at the start, I painted with oil paint, then I switched to acrylic paint for reasons that I can\u0026#39;t remember or that weren\u0026#39;t very clear, but when I was using acrylic paint, I came to the conclusion that if I used thin layers, the work took no time at all. I wanted to take my time painting. That\u0026#39;s why I started painting with oil again and was glad that the paint was absorbed. The paint disappeared into the canvas while I was painting, so I had to touch it up, add to what had disappeared. The paint didn\u0026#39;t disappear evenly, of course, which resulted in a rather stubborn painting, because you\u0026#39;re always tempted to restore what you lose along the way... The painting is part of a series I exhibited at Richard Foncke in 1980-1982. Together with the paintings based on the monkey puzzle trees in my garden, these were the most important paintings from that period. I called these paintings \u003ci\u003eZacht apeverdriet\u003c/i\u003e, as if you could walk over them... The model of this painting is called \u003ci\u003eTornado\u003c/i\u003e (1981, Jacobs: 402). It has also been \u0026lsquo;repaired\u0026rsquo;.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Why did you use the absorbent canvas if you wanted to work more slowly? That also accelerated the drying process, didn\u0026#39;t it?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, but the result was different. (He is quiet and looks at me.) I don\u0026#39;t want to answer any more questions now. Why don\u0026#39;t you answer your own questions? Then I might learn something.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Because I try to write texts and books that teach us something about the works themselves rather than about the author\u0026#39;s speculations. I can\u0026#39;t imagine that you would be interested in such speculations. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I don\u0026#39;t read about art. I used to write about art myself, but I stopped when I caught myself using the word \u0026#39;field of tension\u0026#39; for the umpteenth time.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- That\u0026#39;s exactly my point. I have never used the word \u0026#39;field of tension\u0026#39;. I\u0026#39;m trying to do something else. But I\u0026#39;m tired, I have to say. And if you want, I can leave now. It\u0026#39;s up to you. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e(From the corner of my eye, I can see that De Keyser\u0026#39;s son, who is two metres to his left, is starting to smile. De Keyser is silent and looks at me piercingly. I get up and walk towards the painting in question.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- There used to be a landscape by Jean Brusselmans here. It was a winter landscape. You loved it, because you\u0026#39;d paid a lot of money for it, instead of buying a holiday apartment at the seaside, which is what your wife wanted. What was so special about that painting? I don\u0026#39;t know. I saw it just once, now more than a year ago. But if I remember correctly, the trees seemed to be black and the branches were covered in snow. Snow in a painting, I often find that odd. Because you need white to finish a traditional painting. Thick coats of white can make for a comical effect. And thick coats of white on seemingly black branches produce a fascinating image... Is it a coincidence, then, that the painting that is now taking its place also appears to have a black-and-white structure?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: (Angry.) That\u0026#39;s not black. That\u0026#39;s Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green... I\u0026#39;ve used a lot of green. Sometimes I was tired of it and couldn\u0026#39;t face green for a long time... Piet, can you go and fetch a tube of Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green for us? Wait, I\u0026#39;ll come with you\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e(Both men disappear and come back after ten minutes. De Keyser has two new paintings with him. In the meantime, I have looked up Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green: it is a dark green colour created by mixing Prussian blue and \u003ci\u003eGamboge\u003c/i\u003e, an orange-like yellow.)\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I can only find Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green in acrylic, but I\u0026#39;m sure that it was an oil paint\u0026hellip; I brought along two of the four-part \u003ci\u003eDe Zandvlo\u003c/i\u003e with me. My father made the stretchers for it. Instead of making them 2.5 cm thick, he made them 5 cm thick. It was right here, I\u0026#39;ll never forget. I\u0026#39;d been working at the university all day, I came home at five o\u0026#39;clock, and then I saw this. Where is he? I asked my wife. He was already in the caf\u0026eacute;, celebrating his successful day. I went there to look for him. \u0026ldquo;20 x 30 x 5 cm, that\u0026#39;s not going to be a painting, but a box!\u0026rdquo; I said. But he was satisfied with his work.\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp;\u0026nbsp; To return to your question about why I used an absorbing surface: the painting is essentially about these traces of this white line. Many of my paintings are an exercise in recalcitrant painting, a purification of lines or surfaces. I used to have a neighbour whose job it was to paint the white lines on the football pitch. He did so with a bucket and a brush. When he was painting, he sometimes had to go back, because the wayward grass resisted... I, too, always searched for forms of waywardness. What is technical competence? Going from A to B. Some do it as straight as possible, others do it waltzing...\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Often, when you place dots or small stains on your canvases, you do so in a space that you left open and you let a thin line of the canvas shine through around the dot or stain. I think that\u0026#39;s funny. And you?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Me too.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- You selected five paintings for our meeting. We are now in front of \u0026#39;Drie hoeken: II\u0026#39; from 1971. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: That, too, was painted on an absorbent canvas.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- The mini-catalogue that you prepared for me states that the painting has been tamponed. What did you use for that? A cloth, paper, a sponge?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I can\u0026#39;t remember.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- We are now looking at \u0026#39;Untitled\u0026#39; (1988, Jacobs: 555), which you describe in the catalogue as \u0026#39;\u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003eVerzonken hoeklijnen in donkergroen, rechtsboven open\u0026#39;\u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003e (Sunk corner lines in dark green, top right open). \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: An old football line that is fading\u0026hellip;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- \u0026#39;Studie voor Kerf\u0026#39; (1989) was made later. \u003c/i\u003e\u003ci\u003eWe see a white horizontal line applied on top of differently coloured surfaces. It seems as if you\u0026#39;ve painted the coloured areas twice. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: I don\u0026#39;t think so. But maybe I did, I honestly can\u0026#39;t remember... This painting (\u003ci\u003eSok\u003c/i\u003e, 1971) originally represented a football sock, which I repainted a year later. I\u0026#39;ve repainted things before. In fact, in 1992, I exhibited in a Berlin gallery a series of works that I called \u003ci\u003eSouvenirs massacr\u0026eacute;s\u003c/i\u003e. They were recurring images, of which I knew beforehand that I would repaint them.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Here you painted the edge of the painting white afterwards. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, sometimes I do that when the edge is dirty.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- The canvas is very granular. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: Yes, I once experimented with all sorts of different kinds of canvas to see how the same Hooker\u0026rsquo;s green would react to it. I asked my supplier to provide me with as many different kinds of canvas as possible. The result was a canvas of 50 by 50 cm, which consists of nothing but cut out rectangles of canvas that I glued together until they formed a square. Then I painted them with the same colour in the same mixture. Depending on the texture of the canvas, the green becomes darker or lighter. The work is called \u003ci\u003eStudie voor Lamastre\u003c/i\u003e.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- What does the title mean?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: The titles of these works refer to towns that surrounded us at our holiday home in France: Lamastre, Chambonas, Vanes... When you visited me in my studio last time, you saw that I\u0026#39;d made many small and narrow strips of cloth in a wide variety of formats. That\u0026#39;s because I want to use up all the canvas I still have. All the leftovers. My son Piet thinks I should buy new canvas, but I love this kind of voluntary poverty.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- What attracts you to the work of Jean Brusselmans?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: His brutality, which is even reflected in his frames and stretchers.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- And in the work of Courbet?\u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: The skin in his paintings and the density of things... I once set myself the task in Vienna to look at human and animal skin in paintings. I wondered which painters had been able to produce the effect that you would rather see human skin than paint. I found seven or eight outstanding examples. Five of them were by Rubens. One of Courbet.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003e\u003ci\u003e- Last time, we talked about Giacometti. \u003c/i\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003cp style=\"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: sans-serif,Arial,Verdana,\u0026amp;quot;trebuchet ms\u0026amp;quot;; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;\"\u003eDe Keyser: In a letter you wrote that I may be attracted to the interiors in that photo book. But the picture I love the most is the one where he crosses the street under his coat. That hood! And then, very romantic, that picture of that caf\u0026eacute; visit with his girlfriend. Amazing! At one time, I was the second visitor to an exhibition with his work at the Mus\u0026eacute;e d\u0026#39;Art Moderne in Paris. There was only one Japanese man in front of me. He had camped out in front of the entrance. I walked straight to the end of the exhibition and then slowly walked back to the crowd. They had used very large plinths, which put me off to some extent\u0026hellip;\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\n\u003cbr /\u003e\r\nMontagne de Miel, 30 March 2009\u003c/p\u003e\r\n"},{"locale":"es","short_description":"","description":""},{"locale":"el","short_description":"","description":""}],"actors":[]}